Why so expensive? This wristwatch question is asked, but what about a chair?

Aug 09, 2014,00:16 AM
 

Of course, to a minority, they know chairs made of wood, lacquer and leather will out cost most 99% of any watch.

Or even just canvass.

But we are here...for chairs..google "Dragon Chair auction 2009".

Not only the spur of pricing of Ellen Grey's chair, which I was present.

But for other chair makers, the top end 1940 and 1960 chairs will cost more than the highest new wristwatches, which happen to be more rare, and will outlast the chairs, as well as being portable.





Originally this short article was intended to be one of a series that covered why watches will diverge in price into ultra high and ultra low.

 Instead, maybe I can extract parts of my book on the lab and workshops at Ulysse Nardin.

The explanations will be extremely simple.

This is not a technical expose, but a personal guide for sharing..nothing more. Errors will be there, it is perception that gives a hobby passion.

It is my wish to guide the buyers towards the higher end. The higher you go, the more aware of smaller things to look for, and how the procedures were done. I spent some years studying two types of machines…broadly laser guided eye ball cutting micromachines in 1999, and in 1980..AO steel manufactured screw heads. AO means Association Swiss for use on metal to bone orthopeadic interface.

So my understanding is biased. It is of course tempered with many hours at IWC, Lange, Ulysse Nardin and Dufour’s home. That will be the order I learned.

This short essay is meant only to guide buyers of ultra high expensive watches which preserve old techniques, which will I personally feel will diminish as it is not a factor of efficiency or cost, both extremely important, but will loose the “musicality” of a hand made and artistically cut piece of metal.

Having done myself much handwork, I understand the tedious hours. However, the mind battles the boring by infusing the strokes of cutting, filing and so on with musical rhythm, I think you understand...hence my persuasion that finely made watches today, and from 1998 onwards, will be of great interest.

But I digress:



This above is found on many watches.

But I hope not on a Patek.

It is a cheap screw.


Today, screws are made by machines churning them out by hundreds or thousands…nonetheless it still will require an engineer to sit down and spend up to 20 steps to create the software.


Then there is the ultra high end where you know that the screw was hand made or hand finished to the best.


While slot, beveling and all are totally machined from ground zero, some rare watches will have no compromised screws within. These watches, because of the detailing, that goes down to even the screws….will begin at $50,000 usd, for simple movements and case. And…from $500,000 usd for a tourbillon(s).


However, buyers beware of marketing techniques…it is not evil, but at least you got what you wanted…perfection for future investment (yes, I may be wrong) or just joy…both correct.


Here are pictures to illustrate:

For a steel watch.

This is what your watch, if you are paying more than $5,000 USD should have, at least on all movement parts, especially if you have a see thru back.

Now, if you were to go backwards in time, you can see and begin to understand how each watch company was run, and the philosophy behind, whether business or passion. Just by the screw ...I may be wrong. But that's how I did it.






Note that if you wish to buy a watch like the level of the Greubel Forsey, I can’t find another name besides Dufour, and Lange was ok before the 2012 models which I spotted a few screws of the less expensive sort, the slotting of the screw head will require a hand operated flat milling cutter.

This operation often separates the companies which make 100 or less, from the ones that can make 1,000 or more. There are plate finish techniques which further separate makers down to below 100 per annum.

Even Greubel Forsey may not do all slotting by hand, but only for the tiny ones around the tourbillon cage…otherwise the company will spend 9 months just making enough screws.

Anyway, to illustrate the almost mundane task…it is this task, that reveals the soul and the intention of the watchmaker.

First, finding or even making a file to slot the screw head is a task. Often at the tourbillon level, a tool as boring as a file, has to be made! That’s why you can find $50 tourbillons or less, and $100,000 tourbillons (just the cage) or more.

And…that’s why I said that the prices of certain obviously expensive watches were “not costly” for the work put in. It was not marketing, but passion having to be realistic….that although so much work has to be done..say at MB&F or UN, that the piece was priced “low”, at a margin that does not allow budget for a small party even…unless it was paid for by the support of owners and fans, as in the Eastern world where I live.

The screw has to be placed in a lattern chuck of a lathe. Using the file, the watchmaker centers the screw slot by hand pressure! The file has to be lowered thru the head, making sure the slot remains parallel to the underneath surface of the screw head!

Then, for such a beautiful screw…one should bevel it.

The process requires a skill to deliver a uniform edge in width, along the entire circumference.

Variations in hand pressure will ruin all uniformity, and as you are contemplating to buy say..a Laurent Fleurier, Greubel Forsey or Dufour, a few Richard Milles…you should look at the superlative execution you will find only among these and possibly 1 or 2 others.

Diamond paste and further hand polish is absolutely needful.

Of course, one will be able to find completely machined flat head screws with beveling, but they are not the same. How?

Look for the evidence of polished screw threads! Hand made screws can be hardened and then polished.

A wooden peg is used with diamond paste to press against the thred, as the lathe turns the screw in the opposite direction. By now, a cigarette is required to calm the nerves.

A Degussit stone is used to polish off the entire work to enhance the brilliance of the screw!




This screw above is not used.

But note the flat head and the bevelled edges of the outer head.

The top end makers have bevelled also the slot.



This flange you almost always see in watches.

Now, it becomes important to look at the holes thru which the screws go thru.

They should be bevelled on the best watches.

Polished even.






These are not watch crews.

They are made of nylon.

Inexpensive. Stands up to 230 degrees C of heat!!!

They are incredibly useful, and can even be colored.

Imagine a watch with colored screws by 2015.





Before even one screw is created. The CAD writer spends up to 20 steps writing the precise look of the screw and the machine will make thousands.

Complete with flat heads, bevels and all.

Various companies have to meet to agree on a common arrangement to use these thousands of screws.

This makes it more affordable for you.

Or they can charge more.

You need to know.

A specially made, unique screw is damned costly.

It does not make your watch much more difficult to fix if it goes wrong.

There are ways to replace a screw...but rarely will a screw be broken, except by accidents at the slot, or over tightening.






The JLC movement above.

Can you spot the one cheap screw?

Can you spot that damage has been done probably by repairman, at all the other screws? Either at the slots or at the countersink?

Possibly the cheap rounded screw was added on by repair.

But sadly, I have to say I found many rounded screws showing up. Mostly on friends, not at the shops.




Inexpensive Russian watch. No. Zero. No rounded screws, the communists could have saved millions, because they were consistant with flat screws from 1947 to 2007. They have chutzpa and pride.

Made with no movement changes from 1947 to 2007.

This is one of their worst examples...but even at that, they have very good work.

The bridge work is poor.

The metals are poor.

But it is to me, a correct watch, because watches were then seen as luxury or as indulgence.

If we do not know why a watch is costly, this will be the result.

Case this watch in a fancy gold case, add a tourbillon, and you price it at $400,000 USD. It will be bad.

That is exactly why banks and many conservative investors tell you that watches are bad investments.

It takes training....reading...not my posts, but real books!!!


Anyway, JLC, IWC and Lange make very fine watches.

But to me, they hold the prices due to resales, and not due to workmanship or art.

If this goes on and on....watches will remain bad investments.

After saying this..they will never invite me to anything ever again.

At my age, it is OK.

Please don't post like me. It will spoil your reputation.





Here you see the power unleashed after 1998.

The ability to produce armies of screws of all shapes, sizes and to even add finish, by cnc or other machines.

This technology adds value to watches you buy today.

Buy wisely.

Buy always being aware of the era.




Screws used to command what can or cannot be done.

No more.




Screws made to below 1mm or even 0.3mm length.


The amount of care lavished on each screw allows the potential consumer to understand why this trade, at this level, is under severe threat of extinction.


3D printing may soon replicate this…but it will enhance the value of the watches made before that era is born. Just as photography enhanced the value of the master works of canvass.


When I have time…I hope to share bridge finish and pins.


I hope this helps to develop the market, where not only status operates, but a poorer man as I, will save for a good piece of work.


As I write this today, I wear an Omega Speedmaster made of black ceramic. This is because as industry grows in advanced technology, it adds value to the old world charm as it becomes extremely rare.


Also…the Omega Ceramic speedmaster is a herald of things to come, which have already been created, but not placed into sale.


Finally I wish to add these pictures of Greubel Forsey...again...but this time, I hope you understand me.






Notive the screw setting...this is a setting not needful, but to add value to an already pricey watch.

It is clever, it defines an era, and preserves the possibility that on resale, the watch commands incredible price, and it pulls all other brands who work well up.

A noble task.

I admire both Greubel Forsey and another brand..MB&F for doing so.

Both in differing ways.




Look at the above.

It is for future posts on workmanship by hand.

It may not be mathematically perfect.

But it is 100% on cue in the musicality, slightly off, yet perfect rendition of craft...a craft obviously by hand.

Not possible to induce maths errors into a random but beautiful pattern.

This is seen at the edges, the platinum and gold margins.

The gaps.




Note the imperfect 4 pieces of metal.

You will see the same on Pateks prior to 1990.

These were relevant to the era.

I hope that it is not commercialism that will drive Patek.

Which is why I own a Patek, why on earth do I want to look after a watch?

Unless I feel it carries meaning of me to my children, so I must wear it...not keep it in plastic!

I hope if anything, people take out their Pateks and wear them.

Elsewhere on my posts, you will see I do not look after my Pateks, they look after me...as it should be.

Thanks for the kindness in reading.

Brands..sorry for any negatives...but its me.

This message has been edited by bernard cheong on 2014-08-09 00:33:09


More posts: DufourGreubel Forsey

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Hmm National Day here, brand calls me.

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 9th, 2014-00:38
OK. Forgiven as it was a call from another timezone and they said rounded screws for work horse models. Flat as far as possible for superior and higher placed models. They agreed with me that a good way is to look at the screws. I too agree. The internet ... 

Remarkable Mr Cheong

 
 By: moc : August 9th, 2014-01:39
Fantastic post.....I always wonder what untrained eyes look at when holding a loupe and gazing at a display case back..... I always want to shout"What the hell are you looking for?"......I believe only a few could give me a clear answer.... Back to my col... 

This article is amazing detailed!

 
 By: Nicko16 : August 9th, 2014-03:36
I want to go out and buy a LoupeSystem!

Nick, I have only barely scratched the surface.

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 9th, 2014-04:16
The choices of cheese head and stepped and champher head are chapters if you wish, I can tell you more.

Would you be so kind to open those chapters??

 
 By: moc : August 9th, 2014-05:52
Maybe with some reference pics.....this could be a very interesting reference thread... Thank you in advance. Mo

Thank you, it means alot to me.

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 9th, 2014-04:13
You know. Being a Singaporean, I am proud our little nation is well known in the watch industry. Singaporeans must know watches as if they know their chicken rice. We need also an emphasis on intent and philosophy. Why? Because many honest watchmakers use... 

look..the Omega Speedmaster CoAxial screws

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 9th, 2014-05:01
Passed. These are highly sophisticated numeric cutting and numeric multiple lathes. They are machine cut, chemically polished. Then machine polished again. Result: previously $4,000....now $12,000. Of course a few other details too, like the ceramic case....  

Definitely an indicator of finishing on a watch..

 
 By: moc : August 9th, 2014-05:51
a high end or self called so...... I will try to post some of mine soon.... Mo

Yes. Omega is a pet brand of mine..I admit I love them.

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 9th, 2014-18:09
The makers have been always , like UN and Grand Seiko, always tried to make watches affordable. If I could find a person who wishes to sell his used Omega central tourbillon, I will seriously want to buy it.

There is plenty to ask your retailer about the hundred or so screws

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 9th, 2014-04:27
In an average watch, almost 100 screws are employed. Ask about the threading procedure, you are paying a lot of money. Ask if standard pitch, thin pitch have been used to fasten the plates you are examining and why. High end watches don't use roller/runne... 

Seizo Sugawara in Paris

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 9th, 2014-17:57
Eillen Gray made good friends with this man, who was a purists, before the net...chuckles. He was an expert in lacquer. Her chair, although I have touched it...I will say, it is unlikely to have employed any scews, but tendon and mortice joints are my gue... 

Thank you, Bernard.

 
 By: jporos : August 9th, 2014-11:50
I always enjoy the knowledge and passion of your posts. Care and craftsmanship can be seen in both the handfinished screw and the Speedmaster screw, all CNC made. I think that is what is interesting about horology today, the melding of handcraft and machi... 

It is my purpose to make sure that watchmaking rises above 2 things

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 9th, 2014-18:05
The furniture collecting guys. and the cars...the cars I can understand why so expensive. But if we do not tell and share the word with people, watches may just stay here. I wish that all the people with money and without, will shift about 25% towards us,...  

Thanks, Bernard!

 
 By: mkvc : August 9th, 2014-12:11
That was a great learning experience.

Thanks! Here is a picture of an accident, for everyone to learn from

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 10th, 2014-05:26
This is an accidental mistake of the person applying pressure on the screw driver. As he/she completed the process of tightening, he/she withdrew the screw driver slightly too fast, while pressure was still turning the tool, hence you see the slight uneve...  

I'm sure you know, but look into vintage pocket watches before 1950s...

 
 By: Ancienne Le Brassus : August 9th, 2014-13:48
there, in the models made between 1860s to 1930s... you'll see the zenith of finishing..... each screw hand finished, each slot perfected, why? because labor was cheap, because it was segmented to experts in each part of the watch, and you had amazing com... 

Recently, 2009, I was shown this at Basel. This should not happen.

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 9th, 2014-18:27
This pic shows a fully developed and sold watch...as high horology. Since then, they have made corrections. But look, you have a double swan and then with these screws??? I am happy to say, all of these minute compromises have been rectified. People pay g...  

;) I like that picture...

 
 By: Ancienne Le Brassus : August 10th, 2014-05:03
It is so true...!! Thanks again for your great post, please, keep'm coming if you find the time to write them! i hope you're having a good weekend, S

Bernard I think that we could use more essays on how to....

 
 By: Ronald Held : August 9th, 2014-14:01
Identify details that indicate a superior product.

Bernard, a very interesting post from you.

 
 By: lhk1 : August 9th, 2014-19:59
Do you think Patek or Lange uses same quality of screws on all their watches regardless the price/value of them? Or do you have any obvious examples? From my personal experience through my collection, I tend to think that the lower value watch has inferio... 

During 2 seperate admins...after Blumlein. Yes.

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 10th, 2014-00:37
From my experience, all the mainstream, ground winning pieces are Lange 1 and Datographs made during Blumlein's reign. I , humbly am thinking, that he wisely assigned all work on these and those higher, to the best guys. Below, the others had work done, f... 

Good question!

 
 By: tom2517 : August 10th, 2014-18:30
I am curious as well, perhaps someone can use a loupe to check the screws say, in a grand complication and compare it to a Aquanaut or Nautilus.

Don't forfet to date the watch...I have examples of both

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 10th, 2014-18:35
from 1980s. A perpetual chrono and a several nautilus and many 5059 derivatives. But if someone can shoot better, and surely there is...

Well....

 
 By: tom2517 : August 11th, 2014-02:49
I used a loupe to check 5970 and 5015, they all had flathead screws, no round ones that I can see of, but the screw holes on the 5015, although bevelled, was not done as nicely as they were on the 5970, at least in my particular case.

Great insights, Doc!

 
 By: TOPLIMIT : August 10th, 2014-01:19
Thanks for opening up this chapter. Of course, it all boils down to the tiny little details; details that people don't usually bother to check out. That is dedication, and it shows the integrity and passion that goes towards watchmaking. I am glad that yo... 

The hororlogical passion...

 
 By: Mally : August 10th, 2014-03:00
I really don't know if I agree or disagree..... 1. This is a watch site - the knowledge & in sight is amazing. 2. Like most objects, this is one of passion - in actual hindsight, for many, who haven't caught the bug, its ridiculous. 3. But for those w... 

It does help the train of thought and I agree.

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 10th, 2014-05:16
I bought very few watches until my kids completed their studies, and I had to drive a much cheaper car.

Excellent post!

 
 By: tom2517 : August 10th, 2014-17:57
A couple of your earlier posts rubbed people off the wrong way but I always thought that was never your intentions, you were just gaga over GF. Keep these kinds of technical articles coming, I am sure a lot of us learned a lot and are interested in knowin... 

i examined the screws on lange

 
 By: chintu : August 11th, 2014-03:33
I checked all the screws using a 10x loupe on Datograph Perpetual and can confirm that all the screws heads are flat, beautifully polished and the slots bevelled. I did not find a single round headed screw. So Bernard I am not sure as to which model that ... 

the Roundheads vs. the Flatheads

 
 By: amerix : August 11th, 2014-11:36
I too discovered round-headed screws in the same position of my double swan necked PanoInverse. Does that disturb me in any way? The answer is --- no. In fact, I enjoy their "roundness". Surely they were put there for a purpose, and not to save cost. I es... 

You are both correct. There is are no rounds used, flats were immediately placed.

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 11th, 2014-18:41
Any longer. Also, in those years when I worked for projects as a "consumer", it's a really fun job to see these movements. The old purists from when the year this site migrated out of another, will recall my old responsibility , and why I had the leverage... 

Bernard,....

 
 By: SuitbertW : August 12th, 2014-05:24
Hello, Bernard, as a disclaimer, you know my diplomatic skills are not well developed, so please forgive any sort of offensive tone in my posting! I know a ot of people appreciate your contributions, while others are frequently troubled by some of the typ... 

Hi Suitbert, if you have the time, I would be grateful...

 
 By: lhk1 : August 12th, 2014-19:08
if you could kindly correct any wrong information provided by Bernard for the benefit of all readers here. Your input would be much appreciated. Regards Ling

Hi Ling...no mistakes.

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 12th, 2014-23:19
Above is the more detailed post.

Hello, Ling,....

 
 By: SuitbertW : August 13th, 2014-06:47
There're a lot of things in this posting which IMHO are at least misleading, but I'll try to name a few more specifically. First, rounded or flat screw heads - this are two different designs, but even Bernard is trying hard to suggest so - there's no diff... 

Suitbert, thanks so much for your clarification.

 
 By: lhk1 : August 14th, 2014-10:38
Now, you provide a platform for readers to judge themselves of the accuracy of the information. I tend to agree that the quality of a watch cannot be determined merely by a few screws. Your input is much appreciated. Regards Ling

Incorrect. Here is why:

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 14th, 2014-18:33
Suitberg wrote>>>"it does not make for a cheap solution at any price" His words should be>>at certain prices. He made a sweeping statement. He forgot to mention" it is very hard to use flat heads because the insertion of the driver may and ... 

Bernard, no negative feeling at all. You get too sensitive.

 
 By: lhk1 : August 14th, 2014-22:31
I do not hear one side version. In fact, my profession trains me not to hear one side version. I want to read more info and judge the truth by myself. You have your point but it does not mean that you are certainly right. Suitbert also has his point and h... 

Oh ok. I am wrong...

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 14th, 2014-23:06
Oh ok. I am wrong to have said that. I am sincere. My apologies and I hope you forgive me. I also overreacted because I read your comment just after. Spending over an hour to set a drip on a baby from a poor family, and I charged them $2. My partner in ro... 

Accepted

 
 By: lhk1 : August 15th, 2014-23:18

Dear Bernard,

 
 By: SuitbertW : August 15th, 2014-08:19
just a few words - I don't "challenge" Mr. Papi and if I ever get the chance I'd be curious to hear his take about a more specific question in that matter. To my personal experience a fillister type screw might be easier to be polished to a certain degree... 

I agree with you

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 15th, 2014-09:11
This was a part of a discussion. Still, the presence of poorly finished flats are rarely seen. The poorly finished rounds are flourishing, and even getting to big brands. There must be some one to speak up. Watch makers should. And it seems poorly finishe... 

It's OK. This topic is spot on..will explain.

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 12th, 2014-23:16
Above is the post.

Bernard, provoking post, but I have trouble following you!

 
 By: Ornatus-Mundi : August 12th, 2014-12:12
First of all, in order to make a conclusive argument on the topic of intrinsic values of rounded vs. flat-headed screws it would be useful to discuss the production implications vis-a-vis each other (you only focus on the flat-headed screws), and then the...  

One step at a time...above.

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 12th, 2014-23:18
These are all good friends, including Daniels. And they will agree. I ill explain above.

High end Horological aesthetics aren't 'static'

 
 By: Ancienne Le Brassus : August 15th, 2014-01:36
So I guess... that's part of the issue what is being addressed here. what elements should a consumer of High End horology pay attention to, and when are corners being cut. But again, as some posts have noted, there are issues of aesthetics of watchmaking ... 

Yes!!! Spot on.

 
 By: bernard cheong : August 15th, 2014-09:14
I missed this in my contemplations. Sincerely...thank you. There are some serious issues this has brought up. Thanks. You will see some changes.