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The purists- Opinion

By: andrewG (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008

Hello all,

 

A long time lurker here deciding to start posting and asking a questions but perhaps some background first

As a lurker who has collected watches for about 5 years (since I turned 21) I have enjoyed reading the purists reports, interviews, technical discussions and introduction of new watches to market. To me the purists offers a easy conduit to a pulse on the watchworld- living in Ireland  watch collectors are few and far between (or they hide out very well!!). So my comments below must be taken in the context for my love of this website.

I have noticed over the last few years the lack of the community expressing "opinion". One of the cornerstones of this website and people seem to have forgotten the fundamental right of each human- to hold one’s own thoughts. Opinion comes in two forms- either negative or positive. If one expresses a positive opinion their reasons / justification are never questioned. If one expresses a negative opinion they are asked to justify extensively, to reason, to support, and to build a case for having that opinion.

I have noticed that negative opinion usually attracts the most involvement of this community- which is a good thing. The reason negative opinion creates such wildfires is because it sometimes goes against the grain or is contrary to our opinion and we demand that the person explain and prove us wrong (an impossibility since there is never right or wrong with opinions).

So in an attempt to encourage people to express their true opinion it would be an exercise in humility to let everyone talk about their most hated watch with or without supporting their opinion. And let no one, no matter how offended by the others opinion they are rebuke them for it.  

I am not trying to "flame" this form but rather stimulate one of its primary virtues- we have passion, we have information but often our true "opinion" is never expressed.

So here is my opinion on the B&R01- formed by myself, in my own head and copyright of my brain:

The BR01 is a failure in watch design for me for a number of reasons. In my mind the combination of price, design, build and emotional worth go together to make a watch.

A typical example of success is the Seiko burger- the price balances with build, while the design and emotional worth blend to create a beautiful item.

 

The BR01 falls short on price and build: the sum of its parts does not match the price tag. I could go into an in-depth review but I do not have the time.  

 

 

The BR01 falls short on design: what design? It takes the concept of "big" is good and integrates it with a cost effective case

Emotion- the BR01 has plenty. It is visually impressive and impossible to miss on someone’s wrist. It is promoted by expensive dinners and beautiful ladies. B&R have managed to kick up a marketing fuss over something so simple that the owners are the only promotion it needs

Whether the BR01 is a fad or not is irrelevant- if the BR01 becomes the next panerai is irrelevant. For me the BR01 will never form part of my collection due to design flaws, cost and emotional worth.

 

And finally I must apologies if my opinion angered any of the BR01 owners but a counter point is need and hence given.

 

The words love and hate are as powerful as each other but it is easier to say love



Andrew G, that is more difficult than that

By: amanico (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008


I mean that generally, we don't only say " We Love" or " We don't"...
All of us try to explain why we love or we don't..And even when we sepak of our favourite brands, we have a crticial point of view...
Go to the JLC Forum, the UN, or Panerai Forum, read SJX post about the new IWC...There are pros, cons, and neutral point of views...
As for BR 01, and some other watches, you have the choice between:
1/ I do respond, and share with the others my negative point of view.
2/ I prefer not to offend anyone, and more specially the owners of this watch, saying negative things about it.
3/ I share my very enthusiast point of view...
While I'm not all a BR Guy, not by Snobism, as I own a collection of Panerais...LOOL, just by personnal taste...
The design doesn't speak to me, nothing special about the movement, but hey, if some others like it, who I am to say that I'm the one to have the truth...
To generalize, and not only to speak about BR Watches, you wil see on each forum of this sites a lot of interesting discussions about watches, and some contradictory inputs..We may not all the time agree, in a postivie or negative way...And we let it know...
That's the major interest of this site, IMHO...Sharing in a civilized way our views, even, and it happens more often than you think, if they are different...
Check, and you will see, there is no Sacred Monsters, here...
As for love and Hate, let me end my input with this pic I Love...

Image Hosted by ImageShack.us

Looking forward to read you more often, my new friend!
Nicolas


More on opinion

By: andrewG (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008

Amanico,

 

Thanks for the reply and I agreed with everything you say. There are some great opinions expressed on this site- I guess it is just that sometimes I see opinions suppressed when they shouldn't be. No one comments when someone says they love xyz but in some recent posts I see people afraid to come out directly with a real opinion be it "good god why did anyone ever design that" or something similar.

And perhaps it is because we are afraid to offend and I understand that- this community is built on friendship. I would hate to think that someone felt bad or was upset because I disliked their watch. However there comes a point when someone needs to offer a counter point to rampant marketing of a new watch- whatever it be (a new RO, a new LE, a new brand etc). And that counter point needs to be as strong as the good point e.g. love / hate - one as strong as the other. The BR01 is a perfect example of this- for a period of time I could not log on without reading about the splendid virtues of this watch, followed by the highlights of an expense dinner and some pictures of a model wearing the watch. My counter point is that this watch offers every little for the cost- the seiko "burger" is more honest!

I guess the point I am getting to is that not all watches are successes- there are more failures than wins, yet we never talk about the failures. We never see the critical reviews- everything is perfect. As a collector I have always wanted to pick up a watch review and get the real information, a counterpoint, like I do when I get a movie review.

Please continue to provide the exciting, interesting info but also encourage the counter-point expressed as strongly. 



Of course, Andrew G

By: amanico (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008


You're totally right...Bad things are also to be said when it is fair to say them...
Nothing is perfect in the horlogical world, there will always be an imperfect part, well, mopre in certain brands than in others! LOL
I' m not alone to be an adept of the free speech, and even more, encourage it...
Opinion is an important part of this site, and this is the noly point I disagree with you...As there is a lot of opinion, given here and there in all the fora of this site.
I really hope that you'll take the time to make a review or just create a post on a watch you love or you hate, or just a watch you want to speak about, in an objective way.
Looking forward to read you my new friend!
Nicolas


luv that pic, Nicolas! (nt)

By: ThomasM (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008

.

Me too, Thomas

By: amanico (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008

These kind of pics are greaaat...Don't remember the name which is given to this kind of pic, but each time I see one, I'm like a kid in front of a Xmas Tree! LOL

Best.

nicolas



Not to your taste?

By: my little rock (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008 - Photo Nav: View All 2 photo(s)

 just for you to gaze... AGAIN, here in case you miss this out!!! LOL!

i wasn't upset about your remark... but just to show you what Nicolas meant... one may hate a certain brand or a certain watch but others may love it!

all of us are simply crazy abou watches!

:P







And there is more to own for me for BR01.......

This message has been edited by my little rock on 2008-03-26 08:42:20 This message has been edited by my little rock on 2008-03-26 08:43:23

Hey, AndrewG, You see what you did?? LOLOLOL

By: amanico (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008




BR+BR+BR+BR+BR....Hop...It's art !!! LOL

By: p@trice (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008



Interesting packaging, Patrice...

By: amanico (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008


But if it's the way they treat their watches, I fear I will never buy them a watch! ROFLMAO
Best!
Nicolas

Respect!!

By: andrewG (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008

I may not like it but I respect a collection like that...



Watches not to everyones taste...e.g. MB&F, VH

By: MarcB (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008

Interesting and provocative post: as another lurker (also Irish, but living in the US) I have been mulling some similar thoughts. In particular, I have found it curious that many really like the following:

1. MB&F creations.

2. Most of Vianney Halter's creations (except maybe Janvier).

Disclaimer: I have never seen any of these "in the metal", however, I find that I very strongly dislike these on aesthetic grounds, they provoke strong words! In particular, the MB&F HM2 and the VH Antiqua. What does this mean? That I am fundamentally aesthetically conservative? Could this be the beginning of hate-love relationship, and that in the future I will find these irresistible? Could it be that in fact the greatest sin for a (collectable) watch is to be completely unmemorable and not provoke any emotions? I'm waiting for the MIH watch: many on the forum seem to like this, and I love the design and concept, but I'm sure that the spare "Bauhaus" design leaves many others cold.

Single malts, soft rind unpasteurized cheeses, truffles etc: all of these provoke strong reactions, and surely in many cases even for those who love them, they were an acquired taste. But could I really like MB&F and VH watches in the future? I really don't think so, but...

Viva la difference!

Marc.



Challenging …

By: AndrewD (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008

Opinion expressed in a passionate, reasonable and balanced fashion is what I come to the PuristS for. I also find that people’s enthusiasm for certain watches opens my eyes and my mind to new possibilities.

 

Often, the more time it takes for me to understand and perhaps fall in love with something, the longer that attraction remains. While I do look forward to the annual watch fairs and seeing all those new designs, it generally takes me a long time to commit to a particular watch. In the meantime I have enjoyed the process and the piece is that much more special.

 

The point and counterpoint expressed here is very useful and in fact focuses my own feelings in a more acute way.

 

Thanks for provoking this discussion, Andrew.

 

Kind regards

 

AndrewD



Opinions (another long rant)...

By: Gaz (registered) Wednesday, March 26th, 2008

Hi Andrew,

I share your views on this subject, particularly year on year, brands introduce new designs and "concepts" heavily smoothered in advertising gobbledy gook.  However, I assure you that there are a lot more monstrosities out there far worst than the one created by B&R.

However, being a competitive market place, buyers are the ultimate winners and we vote with our wallets.  This is why I believe that while we may expouse our opinions, we ultimately make the decision on whether to purchase it or not. 

Your comments around opinion is indeed valid but of course there are varying degrees of opinion and the credibility of the source.  Remember what they say about opinion, smile everybody has one.  What makes it credible, is as Nicholas mentioned, backing up and articulating your opinion.  By saying that "its a failure in design" no matter whether people agree or not, is too much of a motherhood statement, and how do you justify such a failure?  For example, the square case is highly distinctive and instantly recognisable.  If my criteria for design was those two points, then by my value judgement, the BR is a success.  Having said that, I applaud you for backing up your statement by outlining your criteria of price, design, build and emotional. 

I would also argue that there are varying levels of sophistication of buyers and hence their criteria for judging value.  For example, last year the Chinese market grew by 43% in terms of total export of Swiss watches.  While this relative figure seems impressive, they are still ranked #7 in absolute terms.  My sense is that while the Chinese market is growing quickly, the buyers are not as sophisticated as other more mature markets.  Driven by new wealth, the Chinese are buying up anything that has a perception of luxury - a seriously different value judgement.  In more mature markets, sophisticated buyers tend to demand greater value and greater appreciation beyond that of just luxury or a show of wealth.  Most of the active participants on this and other forums are sophisticated buyers or maybe sophisticated buyers with a hint of collector obsessiveness.

My point is that the luxury industry is filled with ambiguity and basic (if not common and well tried) marketing axioms like "if you are not first, create a new category and be first in that" for example "creating the first zero-g tourbillon - WTF??? This is false market leadership at its best, "ownship or association with a word" - for example "its our DNA" as a false creation of heritage or "extreme" to create a sense of ruggedness or "aspirational marketing" a la Gatorade's "I want to be like Mike", for example "I want to be like Clinton, Jay-Z or Arnie".  As sophisticated buyers, we are able to see through some of this nonsense.  We accept the nature of the beast, as a luxury product, the all important "perceived value" is critical to success.

Of course, this is my opinion.  smile

BTW, I like the BR01 and have the all black Phantom - a watch that I can never read the time, to me a design failure if you were buying it as a tool watch. smile

Gaz

 



Wow...and Ouch!

By: Jacky (registered) Thursday, March 27th, 2008

Hi Andrew,

I dont know bout other BR01 fans but myself, i was a little offended when i read your post 'in the beginning' smile Natural reaction i guess but nevermind, i accept the fact that when it comes to personal taste, it can just differ so much. Thus, i would say please do not feel anything bad when you are trying to express your feelings, an honest feeling on any watches or anything at all in your life smile It is one's freedom smile

I still love my watch very much although i know many around me isnt exactly fond of its design. 'To each his own'

Sincerely like to share my watch. Hope it wont be an eye sore for you.

 

 

Regards

 

p/s I guess i should stop posting reports about events and all? seems to had upset more people than bringing joy? I dont know, you guys tell me smile



You've gotta be kidding, Jacky . . .

By: Dr No (registered) Thursday, March 27th, 2008


. . . the enjoyment of watches is what The Purists and PuristSPro is all about - keep'em comin'! Not everyone likes Glashütte Original and Omega as much as I do, and I suppose there are watches that I don't personally care for, but appreciation for horology is what matters, not the watches themselves . . . cordially, Art

Thank you =) i feel appreciated. Thanks. [nt]

By: Jacky (registered) Friday, March 28th, 2008

No message body

Keep on posting B&R news......

By: sclamb (registered) Thursday, March 27th, 2008

I never really understood why people liked B&R until I tried on the BR03 GMT. The finish is excellent, the application of the Luminova should be used as an object lesson for other manufacturers (JLC?! for one), the way the carbon dial recedes into the background and makes the batons and numerals look like they are floating is lovely to see. I do find the BR01 too large, but the 42mm BR03 suits me fine and it is supremely comfortable to wear. And to top it all, there are LOTS of straps you can buy for a B&R LOL!!!

Simon


You are right about the lume! =) [nt]

By: Jacky (registered) Friday, March 28th, 2008

No message body