Horological Meandering

ThomasM
[PuristS]
14331

• Show profile
• Show other posts

a few more thoughts and comments

Hi, Salman,

I wrote quite an extensive reply, but due to a technical glitch it got lost, so I'm typing this again.

Salman, please share with us, either here, or on our software feedback forum - we want to constantly be improving our software to make it bulletproof (no such thing, but we want to get as close as humanly possible!

www.watchprosite.com

I learnt alot from the discussions we had and overhearing your conversations with our friends on our epic trip to La Brassus regarding how no two Minute Repeaters (MR) and Grand Sonneries (GS) sound the same even though the same team of watchmakers, using the same tools making the same watch are involved in the process. That was truly fascinating as in the world of mechanics such variability is hard to fathom for a layman like myself. I thought it was all an exact science but I was introduced to the variability of hand craftsmenship.

Always remember a very basic axiom - If they could, they would.

I've had plenty of heated discussions with Master Watchmakers on this subject (and more than a few industry executives and journalists); especially those who seriously believe that it IS a science and can be repeated consistently. But when I go back to instrument making art and craft No. 1, I hear silence...

I have been exploring the mid tier companies but I've come to the conclusion that its either AP or Patek

Is Patek really on average better at producing MRs and GSs than AP? I would have thought that AP had the upper hand in MRs and GS complications due to their long record in executing them whereas Pateks niche of expertise would be astronomical complications. Just my understanding of things.

As Joram rightly notes, PP has never produced a PGS.

So far, it's Gerald Genta (and now Daniel Roth); Ph. Dufour - he was the first to release a PGS in wrist watch form factor; and F-P Journe. And of course, the king of wristwatch Sonneries en passant, AP. The original quarter repeater PGS (it is now evolved to a minute repeater carillon PGS) was developed at Renaud et Papi Christophe Claret in the early 1990's, primarily by Stephen Forsey and Peter Speake-Marin, under Robert Greubel; one of the most difficult problems with PGS design is the power reserve; both the Dufour and the AP are only able to keep an 8-11 hour PR. (I speak from personal experience) I've asked about a retrofit, taking into consideration advances in PR design and advances in materials. I was told it is impossible, for technical reasons. We didn't have enough time to get into details why.

I remember overhearing a discussion you were having with our friends (I was in the general vicinity so caught snippets of it ) regarding the best case material to produce the loudest sound, with perfect pitch and tone and the conclusion boiled it down to Titanium, do I remember correctly? (I do realize based upon what you've said that Theory does not hold when it comes to MRs and GSs however based upon your experience what do you feel has been the best sounding case material?).

As you know, repeaters and sonneries are a specialized collecting area for me; I've heard hundreds of examples, and owned quite a few. Hence, my comments are based upon this experience, though I understand a little bit about the theory as well.

There are many "pop wisdom" accepted, but for me, ultimately unfounded in reality, "truths."

Materials is one of these areas - the basic theory, consistent with acoustic and transducer theory, is that the most efficient transducer is the one that is lightest and most rigid. Thus, Ti, of the commonly used case materials, is the clear winner under this simplistic guideline. And insofar as it goes, this is consistent with my experience.

But, I have heard some Pt cases that rivalled Ti; I've heard rg cased repeaters that were so soft as to be almost inaudible.  Of course, the unexamined variable in the previous statement is consistency of the movement - to make that observation extrapolatable to a generalization about case materials, those movements would need to exhibit the same sound volume in different case materials (basically, ceteribus paribus tests) Other factors are case design; how the movement is affixed to the case; how the case is formed - hammer forged versus single stamped, for example; how the case is worked after it is raw formed; etc.

Some unscientific conclusions based upon personal experience -

Ti is consistently the loudest, but not necessarily the nicest "sounding" in terms of tonal quality or pitch (which itself is a function of the "tuning" of the gongs)

RG is generally the "prettiest" sounding material, based upon single sample examples AND when I have the chance to hear same case design, same movement design, in multiple case materials - eg, AP PGS - clear, resonant, "pure"

I am sure those who have heard one or five repeaters may likely beg to differ with my statement based upon personally listening to hundreds, over a period of decades; unlike most, I accept and recognize that my statement is not scientifically tested, only based upon small sample evaluations, so they are still presented as empirical observations subject to scientific testing.

Platinum has shown me the most variability in terms of sound quality, though most consistent in terms of sound volume - generally softer

In that vein,

most consistent sound quality - PP; and Blancpain/Breguet (most consistent good to great volume and tone, and most consistently soft and not as good...) Interestingly, I just had a conversation with a Master Watchmaker recently, who reminded me that the Lemania / Breguet repeater movement is co-owned between Lemania and Christophe Claret; he felt Claret's iterations are consistently superior to the Breguet/other implementations, primarily due to assembly and "tuning" variables. My own experience with Breguet and Christophe Claret repeaters - GP's implementations; HW; Jaquet Droz; et al - were not that impressive overall.

An upcoming rival is the JLC Ti crystal repeater - this model really frustrates me. The Platinum version is consistently among the worst sounding; the Ti is consistently among the loudest, and most good to great sound quality. I have heard at least 5 versions of the Platinum version, and 8 examples of the Ti version. For how it performs, the Ti version is among the real "values" in the repeater world; too bad it's so darned thick and wide...This is where the PP's, AP's, and VC's are unrivalled, of those that have a high percentage of good to great sounding repeaters.

The AP Sonnerie en passant is in a class of its own if one considers wearability and case size (if one likes "classic" proportions and wearability)

AP John Schaeffer versions are fairly consistently mediocre to poor, volume wise, and mostly unimpressive sound quality wise. While on AP, I have to say that up till 2005, AP had the greatest variability - I own and have heard the greatest number of AP's, and they own both the best sounding title (along with PP) and among the worst...Since 2005, their consistency has improved tremendously, and there are reasons why...

Daniel Roth / Gerald Genta PGS are also consistently among the nicest sounding (versions since 2005; they keep getting better and better in this regard) but suffer from a lack of volume. I know they are actively working on improving them, and were one of the first, along with PP, to install and consistently use scientific testing and evaluation of each and every piece, as well as pieces from competitors.

What about Vacheron Constantin? I think it is no secret I know the VC repeater movement very well, both antique and modern, including the fabled skeletonized simple repeater.

" www.p178host.com .wmv">

click pic - .wmv file, requires Windows Media Player, about 250kb file size

These were a bit more consistent than the AP's of pre-2005, but I also heard quite a few woofers (which, unfortunately, I didn't acquire, to prove my point... ;-) I would place them above AP and below PP for consistency, as a group, but individually, the top positions, considered as a whole including volume and tonal quality, I'd have to give to PP and AP specimen.

In your experience how does one best evaluate the aesthetic, technical and execution of a MR or GS? I mean if I were to pick up a piece and start analysing it what would I be looking for in order to differentiate how one MR has been executed well and another is a masterpiece? (I do realize the subjective nature of my question which is akin to asking someone how to appreciate a good wine or a good cigar but regardless your answer will be priceless as you'll be providing me with the basis and the framework within which I'll be in a better position to evaluate and appreciate the differences between a good MR/GS or a masterpiece).

Sound first and foremost, though like a car (which I know you know quite a bit about) the Subaru or Mitsubishi rally car will likely kick the ass of the much more expensive MB or BMW or AM on the road or track, but it wouldn't have the same "quality" feel...so too with repeaters and sonneries.

Listen for

tonality ("timbre" in French) - clarity, resonance, "purity" and cleanness of tone, whether it is "cystalline" or "wooden"

pitch - how it is "tuned" for each note, and how harmonious the notes sound next to each other

volume - how loud it sounds

in terms of quality other than sound, this is a matter of having an eye for it, in the same way one would compare a Dufour Simplicity to a Hamilton. BUT, where the functionality is impacted would be mostly in the CONSISTENCY of the sound qualities above - within the same piece, how consistently it produces each of the sound quality areas from strike to strike.

Some of the things that specifically impact the areas of sound quality are the draw and recoil of the hammers; the strength of the "strike"  which is dictated by the hammer springs. Of course, it is very complex; the distance of the hammer to the gongs is critical, which is changing as the hammer is drawn, and as it recoils from the strike (as well as the vibrations of the gongs) - see how quickly it becomes a matter of adjustment and "tuning" and not just theory and hard science? Much like a fine musical instrument, except that most repeaters are not made or tuned by musicians or people with "golden ears." Speaking of which, it has long been accepted by Purist audiophiles that all the known musical measuring techniques and metrics still don't adequately "measure," and thus define, all facets of the quality of sound, as perceived by a gifted and well trained musical human ear.  Thus it is with striking watches, despite the "black boxes" used by Daniel Roth / Gerald Genta, and Patek Philippe.

I had an interesting conversation with Mr. Musy of Patek Philippe a few years back; I was surprised to learn that the movements in my most revered, exalted, most consistently incredibly nice sounding repeater model, the 5029 Anniversary automatic repeater (or is that 3029? my meds scramble my memory) - 30 pieces each, each metal, 90 + 2 (caveat - the plus number might be faulty memory) total - were recased from previously produced repeaters which remained unsold for some time. Until the 5029, repeaters just didn't sell that well, even from PP, and many languished in dealer stock. Look at the long waits, draconian measures to "qualify" for one, and almost absurd prices realized at auction, today, for PP repeaters...I ain't heard a bad one yet, and I've heard 12 of the 92 (see caveat above)

I was almost brought to tears by the beautiful tones produced by the 5016 in Hong Kong, in the Christies offices...

Hope my comments clarified more than they confused.

Cheers,

TM

I remember seeing the per hour cost of servicing and refurbishing antique pieces and thinking to myself I've chosen the wrong career LoooL, but having said that I understand that my passion of MRs and GSs has a price and I don't mind it.

I hear you loud and clear on caveat (a) however regarding cavaet (b) I will require your insight and expertise along with the other gentlemen on this board, my current circumstances dictate that I look at the used avenue in my quest for a MR or GS. Maybe with time and as things improve I'll be in a position to commission my very own MR/GS one day.

Looking forward to hearing your wisdom and thank you for everything

S

Site Info.