"Felt" consent

Jan 16, 2012,03:19 AM
 

Dear Steve,

I am no expert in the watch business nor in watch making, just a dedicated amateur attracted by these lovely little wrist marvels. I do not possess high-end watches like some of the folks around here, just plain, simple timepieces. So I cannot judge your statement on a rational basis, but my "tummy" tells me you hit some real issues.

1. Prices: really exploding (even in the medium range sector like Omega, Rolex, Sinn, Stowa), but - hey - they can charge you only as much as the customers are willing to pay. Obviously there are enough customers who (still?) can and will!

2. Sales channels: I only bought a VC at an AD with a very moderate courtesy once and lost a lot of money when selling the immaculate watch 3 years later. I will not do that again. So-called grey market dealers offer the same watches for better prices or a second-hand watch is an alternative.

3. "Soul": hard to grip intellectualy, isn´t it? So here I feel a bit more comfortable with my feelings smile. I am a fan of vintage Omegas which I simply prefer a lot to the contemporary ones: too big, too bulky, too impersonal, too expensive. The old ones are more decent, classic and my watchmaker tells me the movements´ quality of the 1950-1960s does not have to hide from modern Omega movements. Whatever co-axial escapement, silicium hairspring, column wheel control etc. may mean as a technical improvement, my vintage Seamaster with manual wind runs +10 secs a day and costed me only a fraction of these high-tech watches. The unobtrusiveness of these ancient watches is a main attribute that a lot of the current models seem to fear. They are crying for superlatives, records, first-in-history achievements which result in an "it-was-done-because-it-has-not-been-done-before attitude". Some things have never been done before - and nobody will ever miss them smile!

One thing stroke me when reading the comments to your post: those who obviously feed the boom - the Chinese, Indians, Arabs, Russians or whoever does not care about spending huge sums - do not seem to linger about this site, most people are from the traditional (and uninteresting?) old world, i.e. America, Western Europe. So probably we are discussing the topic, but it does not really matter in sales figures for the brands?

Kind regards and thanks for bringing up your points!

anaesdoc

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An Industry in Danger

 
 By: SteveH : January 13th, 2012-08:21
First a quick update. For those who don't know, I left MB&F in December to pursue opportunities outside of the watch industry. As such, I am just a regular Purist once again. My opinion clearly is not representative of any brand, and in fact I can definit... 

Interesting Post, Steve. A few other thoughts

 
 By: jkingston : January 13th, 2012-09:27
First one correction. 10 years ago a Patek perpetual chrono did not cost $35K. List price was about double that--$70K (I am assuming you are talking about the 3970, which was the model then in existence). I share your worry about prices however. I am seei... 

There's no question there are great products right now

 
 By: SteveH : January 13th, 2012-09:33
You know that I love watches and will continue to. But the industry is doing their best to kill the goose laying the golden eggs. Customers are leaving and not coming back. You know a lot of collectors - don't you already see the burnout? I certainly do.

Jeff

 
 By: Mostel : January 13th, 2012-10:13
I feel that Steve was talking about something more personal than Omega movements... Omega came to mind, too, for me, when Steve mentioned 9K. But as good of quality as the Omega may be... it is a soulless watch in my opinion, utterly. Sorry! But I feel th... 

Quod demonstrandum erit ...l

 
 By: Marcus Hanke : January 15th, 2012-10:22
" ...Look at Omega's new chronograph movement: free sprung balance, co-axial escapement, silicium hairspring, column wheel control, vertical clutch, co-axial minute and hour counters and date indication." Beyond doubt,all - or most of this - is new. But i... 

I agree with you

 
 By: dr.kol : January 13th, 2012-09:47
and I am trying my best to focus on other fields of activities. It is quite insane that i.e. Patek's 5140P is costing the average two years net salary of an academically educated Finn. And still Finland is among the richest countries in the world. When th... 

Thank you Steve

 
 By: Mostel : January 13th, 2012-09:57
This quote describes much more than the watch industry. "95% of the artists are untalented dilettantes who in most cases don’t even understand what art is and that it is their job to make it. " Your candor is really appreciated, it makes someone lik... 

Where art is in watches

 
 By: Dje : January 13th, 2012-10:18
Hi Steve, I can't say I disagree with what you wrote, even if I agree largely with what Jeff wrote (if Mr Kingston allows me to call him Jeff). Yes prices are getting insane (even if those prices pay my trip to Geneva monday, I realize that). I'm an educa... 

Very interesting post SteveH

 
 By: emcquillan : January 13th, 2012-11:18
And I have been thinking the same thing. Pricing is out of control, 99% of the products are awful and there is a massive bubble, which will take a decade or two to recover from when it bursts. That's why I buy very selectively only what I truly love so if... 

Not calling for death of...

 
 By: SteveH : January 13th, 2012-11:55
Not calling for death of retail, just a rethinking of the approach! Some do a great job, many do not, all could benefit from some structural changes sent from my phone

...and another bubble lurking after the first one...

 
 By: nickd : January 13th, 2012-12:01
Hi Steve, Nice post. I gave up following new watches a few years back as the prices went up in proportion to the square of the increase in their diameters, and am more than happy in the relatively sane world of clocks. I suspect there's a second bubble wa... 

58 years later and on my wrist

 
 By: Nonpedestrian : January 18th, 2012-03:23
Was cleaning a drawer at my mother's home, found a 1950's Le Coultre Futurematic that was probably in a drawer for 20 years. Brought to my local watchmaker. He smiled from ear to ear. Few hundred dollars later, fully lubed and tuned, while lacking 50 year... 

i think the general concensus s that prices are too high, and may not be sustainable

 
 By: Hororgasm : January 13th, 2012-12:51
but the quality of watches are in general better then a decade ago...perhaps the fun is to separate the chaff from grain. to me, my greatest peeve is those brands like Linde Werdelin who use generic movements warehoused on so so case, and selling at INFLA... 

Very true mate...:)-

 
 By: Hororgasm : January 16th, 2012-19:54

Where is the debauchery when you want one?

 
 By: MTF : January 13th, 2012-20:43
There I was....bored to tears at home and you had DE-BAUCH-ERY? Yah Boo Hiss! I'm only a phone call away........ MTF

Can we plan one for the end of Feb party?

 
 By: Hororgasm : January 16th, 2012-19:51
Themed as horological debauchery!! Best, Horo

Enough of the beary hm4 ok.... LOL [nt]

 
 By: ArthurSG : January 13th, 2012-22:55
No message body

Definitely true Steve

 
 By: ticktockforever : January 15th, 2012-03:46
I agree with your thoughts on the pricing trend of most brands. In fact, brands that are part of the bigger groups are probably the ones "guilty" of upping the pricing. Since when does a 3 handed ETA movement watch goes for $4k list? But I guess the brand... 

That will be such a

 
 By: ArthurSG : January 16th, 2012-20:36
good fit don't you reckon. A chewy HM3, a H-Wing HM4, A couple of LM1s or whatever moniker they go by on each side of Princess Lea's head... An R2HM2 and a CPHM1... and all with a nice star wars fantasy story as a selling angle.

Your post seems to be a good sign of this site´s independence, Horo ...

 
 By: anaesdoc : January 16th, 2012-02:27
as your "peeve" - LW - used to advertise on this page for quite a while ! Kind regards, anaesdoc

And all to the credit of people like TM and MTF etc...

 
 By: Hororgasm : January 16th, 2012-19:47
None of the senior people here have ever instructed me or others, as far as I know, to do otherwise. Cheers, Horo

Great post Steve and an appreciated viewpoint from an "insider"

 
 By: Mel : January 13th, 2012-14:33
Thanks so much for your insight. I agree with every one of your points. I often wonder who's buying all these new watches from all these new and established watchmakers and it seems that anyone with graphic skills can CGI a watch, test the market, then se... 

Yes indeed; some subtleties

 
 By: Nomer : January 13th, 2012-15:14
Steve, thank you for the excellent post. The watch industry today reminds me a bit of the portable tape players of the '70s and '80s. There were many versions of the Walkman, but they were all, well, tape players. A similar analogy is that the industry is... 

Thanks for sharing your thoughts

 
 By: iim7v7im7 : January 13th, 2012-18:28
Steve, Some thoughts in response to your post... Regarding prices, yes they have gone crazy. It has been accelerated by devaluing currency and market demand. To quote Warren Buffett: "Only when the tide goes out do you discover who's been swimming naked."... 

Thanks for all the great comments

 
 By: SteveH : January 13th, 2012-18:52
I enjoyed reading through them. It seems many of the points hit home for many people. Perhaps I should have titled point 2, point 1a. I am not calling for the death of retail. It is great to have great dealers. However, if we agree that Watches in general... 

A very provocative post!

 
 By: Gary G : January 13th, 2012-21:14
One of the immediate thoughts that it spurred was that the very thing that a lot of collectors -- including myself -- are doing may be getting us into more trouble. I refer to the "flight to quality," in which we sell a number of modestly priced and mid-p... 

Very interesting read, Steve.

 
 By: dxboon : January 13th, 2012-22:02
Thanks for your perspective. State of the industry aside, tell me, do you still LOVE watches themselves as passionately as you did before becoming an industry professional? Cheers, Daos

I have more appreciation for...

 
 By: SteveH : January 13th, 2012-22:12
I have more appreciation for some and less for some. Overall I am slightly less interested now but that has nothing to do with in or out - I love the learning aspect about a new hobby and feel a bit out of that phase with this one. sent from my phone

Certainly understandable.

 
 By: dxboon : January 13th, 2012-22:22
I look forward to your next phase in hobbies, and hope you'll share your experiences with us! Daos

"most of this stuff is shit"

 
 By: ArthurSG : January 13th, 2012-22:56
whilke I am sure we read different meanings in to this, just on the surface level of this statement to watches, I must say I generally agree.

'Soul' is what separates 'art' from 'entertainment'...

 
 By: Ornatus-Mundi : January 15th, 2012-11:10
and here is where the watch industry is in great danger to get their knickers in a twist. In the former days horological production was constrained by material and skill but also by the pride of the craftsmen and -women. You could to that, but you don't b... 

I agree 100% and ...

 
 By: nilomis : January 15th, 2012-14:24
Magnus, A large portion of the current lack of soul is a simple consequence of the lack of watch education of the newcomers (or new money). If you look on the advertising material of the past, they had, give or take, an educational content. They used to e... 

I wonder

 
 By: Roger Kint : January 15th, 2012-16:25
The prices do seem more inflated as I have walked through ADs over the years. At the same time, I have spent less time in ADs over the years because most of the watches do seem so similar with one brand or product line blending into another. However, I ag... 

thank you

 
 By: optionc : January 15th, 2012-22:15
Steve, Thanks for your thoughtful post. I agree w/ much of your commentary around the price increases that seem to outpace reason... but not demand. Short-sightedness by an industry that has reset it sights on 'new markets'. And an explosion of brands and... 

"Felt" consent

 
 By: anaesdoc : January 16th, 2012-03:19
Dear Steve, I am no expert in the watch business nor in watch making, just a dedicated amateur attracted by these lovely little wrist marvels. I do not possess high-end watches like some of the folks around here, just plain, simple timepieces. So I cannot... 

Fantastic reading.

 
 By: VMM : January 17th, 2012-04:46
I'm IN the watch industry, for five years now, and I have to agree with many of your comments and words. This post gives me wings (even more) to go ahead with a new project I have had in mind for a very long time, thanks. Best. Vte

Same feeling with you

 
 By: Albert.J : January 17th, 2012-11:53
i was very surprised at the price when i was new to watches. what made me more surprised than the retail price was the rate of inflation and the period of inflation. some of my favourite brands (im not sure about all other brands) has been raising the pri... 

My thoughts on price

 
 By: Albert.J : January 17th, 2012-12:11
i was very surprised at the price when i was new to watches. what made me more surprised than the retail price was the rate of inflation and the period of inflation. some of my favourite brands (im not sure about all other brands) has been raising the pri...